Bridging the Gaps for International Student Success

[00:00:00] Coach Kwan: Hello and welcome everyone to season three, episode seven of the Career Guide for International Students podcast brought to you by ICAway. I’m your host, Kwan Segal. Join us as we explore insights from international education leaders and professionals advocating for international student careers.

[00:00:22] Coach Kwan: And if you would like to watch this in the video format, you can also check out our video podcast on YouTube and Spotify.

[00:00:30] Coach Kwan: In today’s episode, we will discuss how colleges and universities can enhance International student success by bridging the gaps between campus partners. Our guest on the show today is someone who I have admired since I started my journey as a coach for international students career since 2017.

[00:00:53] Coach Kwan: Joining us today is Karin Fischer, Author of the Latitudes Newsletter for the Chronicle of Higher Education, which offers top stories and expert analysis in international education. Karin, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:01:09] Karin Fischer: Oh, no, thanks for inviting me.

[00:01:12] Coach Kwan: Where are you calling from today?

[00:01:13] Karin Fischer: San Francisco.

[00:01:16] Coach Kwan: Beautiful town is, and it’s like the top city that international students want to live in and find a career in San Francisco. know, like Silicon Valley,

[00:01:26] Karin Fischer: Silicon Valley, right? Yeah. It’s

[00:01:28] Coach Kwan: Right they usually come to me, Coach Kwan, I want to work in San Francisco. That’s the request that I usually receive.

[00:01:35] Karin Fischer: Right. Or they want to relocate here. So from someplace else Yeah.

[00:01:40] Coach Kwan: And the diversity is amazing. Yes. All right. I know you very well, and I’m sure that lots of university advisors who are listening to us right now also know your background very well. But maybe some international students would be curious to know more about you. Could you please give us some background a little bit on what drew you to the field of journalism?

[00:02:03] Coach Kwan: Especially. To cover the topics about international students and international education.

[00:02:10] Karin Fischer: Sure. Thanks again for having me. So to journalism, I’ve always loved to write and I’m always very interested in people and their stories and telling those stories and frankly, getting to meet people that you just often don’t get to. In the regular course of your business, if I had another job, I wouldn’t be able to go around the country or around the world and talk to all sorts of interesting people like you.

[00:02:34] Karin Fischer: And so that’s broadly why I went into journalism. International education was actually a little bit of an accident, or it wasn’t something I was deliberately seeking out. I got asked in my own newsroom, I’d been at the Chronicle for about a year or two, if I would work on a, Project that was international.

[00:02:51] Karin Fischer: And I say jokingly that was because I’m Canadian. And so I have a foreign passport, but I traveled and studied abroad. And I think the editor who asked me knew that I had some interest, but I didn’t really intend to get into it. And I just, I don’t know. I just found it so interesting. It was when there was this first big recent boom of international students.

[00:03:16] Karin Fischer: It was just kind of fascinating story. And so then, you know, now I’ve been doing it for. More than a dozen years, I, started studying Chinese, so I could talk to a lot of the students I speak to, or, let’s be honest, so I could say pleasantries when I meet their parents, but, you know, anyway.

[00:03:36] Coach Kwan: That’s so lovely Well can you introduce yourself in Chinese? Is it Mandarin or Cantonese?

[00:03:45] Karin Fischer: Mandarin.

[00:03:46] Coach Kwan: Mandarin. Can you try a little bit here?

[00:03:49] Karin Fischer: Oh but I don’t know that you would love to hear my actual accent though. I guess I would say um, speaking Mandarin

[00:04:02] Coach Kwan: Lovely

[00:04:02] Karin Fischer: Not very good.

[00:04:04] I’m familiar with Ni Hao, Ni Hao Ma. That’s it.

[00:04:07] Karin Fischer: yeah,

[00:04:09] Coach Kwan: that’s amazing that you learn to speak, Chinese to be able to communicate with international students from China and their parents. Yes

[00:04:18] Coach Kwan: it. But it means at least I understand and I can read it better than I can speak it to be perfectly honest the character is really difficult.

[00:04:28] Karin Fischer: yeah. You know, well, I had a number of pandemic years here, so I kind of study.

[00:04:36] Coach Kwan: you really have linguistic talent, I’m telling you

[00:04:40] Karin Fischer: I do not have that. Anyway,

[00:04:42] Coach Kwan: All right, all right. this is fun conversation. I love it. I don’t know how many people get to hear you speak Mandarin, you know, so I feel honored to be able to have this experience. I listened to your presentation at NAFSA about your experience with international students, and you share some memorable stories, meeting with the students on campus.

[00:05:05] Coach Kwan: Can, can you share a little bit of those memorable stories or encounters with the students?

[00:05:13] Karin Fischer: I mean, one of the things I’ve been really lucky to do is to do some stories where I wasn’t just trying to get the Choke for a day or a few hours and tell a story, you know, I was trying to really get to know students and get to know parents and get to know their advisors and really just kind of be embedded in their lives.

[00:05:32] Karin Fischer: And so, for example, I did a story where I spent. an entire academic year, Michigan State and hanging out with Freshman – international students just what their, their first you know, so it’s a lot of sitting in our room, I went to several basketball game. One of my students was a real basketball fan. And, sort of living with them through those challenges of the first year, everything from, you know, how do you make friends and sort of those going to like, you know, tagging along awkwardly with them to stuff and, you know, how do you what about the food and trying to find restaurants that seems sort of like what they they were used to at home.

[00:06:12] Karin Fischer: So all that kind of stuff and, you know, I also got to do have gotten to do that as well overseas in places like China and India and Bangladesh really just spend time. Both of the students who wanted to come here or students who are studying in more of an international education in there, maybe not even in their home countries, but more regionally.

[00:06:33] Coach Kwan: Wow, that is so fun. even like meeting with them in person or with their parents in the U. S. also give us perspective, right? And international experience that very unique and very interesting.

[00:06:48] Coach Kwan: Yeah, I mean, I’m really grateful for the people who’ve sort of let me sit in their dorm rooms or, you know, the families let me sit at their kitchen tables. That’s so wonderful. Now let us talk about some of the differences or commonalities. Do you notice in how different institutions in the U. S. support their international students. Can you share a little bit about that with us?

[00:07:14] Karin Fischer: mean, there’s differences between institutions. There’s also been differences over time, I think, as international students, particularly the undergraduate level have become a larger share of the student bodies in the U. S. I mean, some colleges, frankly you know, that they see their international role or their international role.

[00:07:34] Karin Fischer: because they have so many students has has been more kind of almost like legalistic, right? They’re the visa experts are the people who make the students, you know, stay in status and and that’s it. And, you know, then I go to colleges that have been very hands on and very intentional about trying to identify the problems that students, international students have that might be.

[00:08:00] Karin Fischer: If not unique, specific or try to understand the cultural nuance. And so I think it’s really, to be honest, it’s been changing and there’s been more of that sort of effort to be intentional. Whereas at the beginning, I think, you know, the recruiting people, the admissions folks knew that these students were coming, but the rest of the campus didn’t necessarily.

[00:08:20] Coach Kwan: Right, right. And usually the focus from, you know, universities is to recruit students. Unfortunately, they forgot how to support them. Like, the rest of the job was not as prominent as recruiting part. That’s really insightful.

[00:08:36] Karin Fischer: Yeah I think that’s very true for a long time. It’s less so now, fortunately.

[00:08:41] Coach Kwan: Yes, I know. I have also noticed the improvement and the awareness from so many campuses, but not all institutions have that support system available.

[00:08:54] Karin Fischer: And I mean, we have our international students at all kinds of campuses, some of which have very small offices for international students. And so, I mean, I think there’s real challenges to offering the support.

[00:09:07] Coach Kwan: Yes, it is. So we talk about that gap. can you please share with us a little bit about some disconnections that you have observed between faculty and international officers in supporting international students?

[00:09:23] Karin Fischer: Yeah, I mean, often the international office will have the cultural knowledge. They will know the ins and outs of visa rules and, you know, faculty, particularly early on when you had a great and sudden increase in the number of students coming, they would often be in a fairly small number of programs.

[00:09:44] Karin Fischer: And so the faculty there might feel overwhelmed. I mean, I remember at one college, I went to, you know, everybody wanted to be a business major. And so the business majors had certain, prerequisites and they couldn’t find enough seats in the classrooms, you know, to accommodate all these new students because suddenly there are that many more people who are interested in studying business.

[00:10:07] Karin Fischer: and I think that. there’s the, I mean, that’s very practical. you have enough room for your students? But, you have, the cultural understanding, do you understand where these students are coming from, what their learning styles are, what they may and may not be comfortable with?

[00:10:21] Karin Fischer: I mean, I think the faculty often would tend to focus on the linguistic hurdles, which are quite real without necessarily understanding the cultural nuance. And then there’s just the visa requirements, and so the ways that you have to advise international students are different just as a very simple example, they have to carry a full course load.

[00:10:39] Karin Fischer: So, if they are struggling, then dropping a course it would be for an American student might not be the solution.

[00:10:46] Coach Kwan: That is so true. So there is nuance, not just from the international student side, but also from the faculty members too, that they have to deal with.

[00:10:57] Karin Fischer: Yeah, and I think the faculty help the international side understand the challenges that their students are facing in the classrooms.

[00:11:04] Coach Kwan: Yes. And they are like the front line soldier that need to have daily interfacing with the students, but just unfortunate that not all of them are equipped with skills and competencies to support international students.

[00:11:21] Karin Fischer: Yeah, it’s getting better though I think I hope

[00:11:24] Coach Kwan: Yes, I hope so too. And yeah, I have seen the increasing numbers of professionals, IE professionals like NAFSA, you know, we, they have more and more members and more organizations that want to create awareness about international education. And I know we talk about the admission recruitment international student recruitment.

[00:11:49] Coach Kwan: That means early engagement is so important. Can you elaborate more about the importance of proactive and early engagement with international students? Not just for recruiting them to the campus, but on and on and on of the early support. What are they and why it is so crucial,

[00:12:09] Karin Fischer: I mean, I think this is something that, people have. I mean, I have to credit a number of people on campuses that came to this understanding and saw maybe sometimes where their students were stumbling. You know, I think, a number of places have seen that. It’s important to not just interact with the students early, but to interact with the families to give

[00:12:30] Karin Fischer: both groups. a better understanding of what the expectations are at colleges. Like I was saying a moment ago, there’s just some real significant classroom differences sometimes. I mean, some many international students do study in international schools, and so they have more familiarity with American style teaching and the expectations, but many don’t.

[00:12:49] Karin Fischer: And just to have that kind of people to walk them through. so you’re already having cultural shock. You’re already sleep deprived and jet lagged. And so I think all the things they can do, whether it’s just simply on the academic side, whether it’s on the, here’s what it’s going to be like to move to our campus.

[00:13:08] Karin Fischer: I think just having that groundwork helps. It prepares people, it gives them expectations, and it just helps smooth the process.

[00:13:18] Coach Kwan: The groundwork is so important, right? It’s not just about having one office to support students either. Is this the holistic support?

[00:13:28] Karin Fischer: It’s holistic support, but it’s also just little things sometimes. I mean, I know a number of colleges have become more intentional about when they accept international students just reaching out to them and acknowledging them as international students who are going to be a part of our community, which is so important.

[00:13:44] Karin Fischer: You know just makes them feel included.

[00:13:47] Coach Kwan: I love that. Have you noticed any example from any institution that stood out with the early support or building that awareness?

[00:13:57] Karin Fischer: I mean, what I would just point to is Syracuse. I wrote a piece about them about a year ago. And they really, you know, Not actually through their international office, although their international office is a big partner with this, but from their undergraduate advising for their largest College of Liberal Arts and Sciences, they understood that ultimately, these international students were actually pretty successful academically.

[00:14:21] Karin Fischer: Their graduation rates were good, but. It was that first year, like you said, it was that early intervention that became that they noticed the students were just having a little bit, not even necessarily a harder time, but a different time adjusting and that what they were doing to support their American students just wasn’t working.

[00:14:40] Karin Fischer: And so they have, as you say, a very holistic approach where You know, they have early outreach. They have peer mentoring. and peer mentoring that has some structure. so the onus isn’t on the student mentor to figure it out as they go. And even they do the support for the faculty and they do support for the advisors, in their offices.

[00:15:00] Karin Fischer: And so they’re building kind of this ecosystem of cultural awareness on the campus.

[00:15:05] Coach Kwan: I love their international student success model, and actually, this morning, I just connected with Ling and Steven from Syracuse, and we may bring them to share their experience with the international student support in the next episode on our podcast too

[00:15:23] Coach Kwan: Okay we almost at the end of this podcast episode what changes or improvement do you hope to see in the field of international education in the coming years?

[00:15:39] Karin Fischer: Mean, I would, I guess I would list a couple. One is it’s continuing integration, sort of this continuing cultural awareness. And, and the idea that it isn’t just, you said holistic support, but it also has to be holistic support in terms of what the campus is giving. It can’t be just the international office.

[00:15:59] Karin Fischer: It can’t just be the advising office. It can’t just be the faculty. It always seems to work so much better when there is that sort of common understanding and common goal setting. And the other thing was, I mean, you said it earlier yourself that a lot of that. Initially, a lot of the focus is on recruitment, and I do think it’s a little bit of a life cycle.

[00:16:19] Karin Fischer: Right? And so for a while, everybody was very focused on recruitment. How do we make sure that recruitment is ethical? And the students are the right fit. And, you know, there’s all sorts of Innovation and effort there. Now, I think we’re much more focused colleges. That is are much more focused on the student integration piece on the campus piece.

[00:16:37] Karin Fischer: And then there’s some that are doing better jobs thinking about the what next. But I think that’s really where more of that. Coordination is going to have to come, you know, both for, you know, for having successful graduates for having successful alumni for helping these students transition to the workforce, whether it’s in the US, or they’re going back home, or they’re going to a third country, it’s going to be more complicated and different.

[00:17:03] Karin Fischer: And so now it’s in the same way that we’re, you know, Five years ago, we were talking about how do you get the faculty on board now? It’s how does the international office work with the career development office to be more intentional and culturally sensitive about these kinds of.

[00:17:16] Karin Fischer: Efforts and the kinds of support that these students need,

[00:17:20] Coach Kwan: Very important, yes, to collaboration between different campus offices. It’s not just about writing resume, go to career services or learning CPT, OPT, go to international student services office, because sometimes students also need that support that, you know, throughout their journey, their life cycle.

[00:17:42] Coach Kwan: Like when I First arrive in the US, what should I start? Where should I start? Right? Preparing for that internship. So instead of getting all the questions ping pong from one office to another, sometimes, if different campus office can answer the question, that would be so helpful.

[00:18:02] Karin Fischer: And it’s back to the point. You made the question you asked earlier about why it’s important to start early, too. I mean, we know this. There’s plenty of data and plenty of research in the American context that says, you know, you have to have those interns. You have to do that networking. You can’t show up in your spring semester of your senior year and expect that it’s going to the career service stuff to help you find a job.

[00:18:23] Karin Fischer: So that’s also important, right, for international students, and because of visa requirements and work restrictions, some of this stuff is more complicated.

[00:18:34] Coach Kwan: People and relationship is something that will help them overcome that immigration hurdles, because once they know people inside the organization, they can find career advocates that help them jump over that hurdles, and that human relationship, it requires, it takes time to develop. And soft skills are very important. Like it took me almost 10 years to become so comfortable with networking. You know, I still made lots of trial and errors, but cultural and language barriers is real and it’s intimidating. Yes. The early they can start the better. Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, is there anything else that you would like to share about?

[00:19:21] Coach Kwan: your work or insights into supporting international students that we haven’t covered.

[00:19:27] Karin Fischer: I mean, we could probably talk all day about international students. Like I said, I didn’t intend to, get go here, but you know, then I just got really interested. So, I would just say, you know, I do cover this. I write about it weekly in my newsletter and I’m very interested and I really appreciate.

[00:19:43] Karin Fischer: folks like you who are on the front lines who are, dealing with these issues, and finding solutions often. that helps inform my work in my reporting.

[00:19:54] Coach Kwan: I’m grateful and I will share the link to your, subscription.

[00:19:59] Karin Fischer: Oh, great. Thank

[00:20:00] Coach Kwan: In the caption of this episode so that students can also sign up our advisor who haven’t signed up yet they be able to follow your work.

[00:20:10] Karin Fischer: Thanks so much.

[00:20:12] Coach Kwan: Will that be the best way for listeners to follow your work or what other channels that they can get in touch with you?

[00:20:19] Karin Fischer: I post on LinkedIn, if you figure out how to spell my name, you can find me. I post there fairly frequently and actually, I, I appreciate the conversations that happen on LinkedIn where I hear from, you know, again, other people dealing with common challenges.

[00:20:35] Coach Kwan: I will also share your LinkedIn in the caption Whenever I turn on LinkedIn app, your post pop up and it’s always educational and informative. So thank you so much for leading this community for, you know, pulling us together with that informative, content every week.

[00:20:58] Karin Fischer: Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate it.

[00:21:00] Coach Kwan: And thank you so much for your insights today. It’s been a pleasure having you on the show.

[00:21:05] Karin Fischer: Oh, it was a lot of fun. Thanks for asking me.

[00:21:08] Coach Kwan: If you enjoyed this episode, follow our channel and share your positive thoughts with a review.

[00:21:15] Coach Kwan: Your support helps others find us. Thank you for tuning in and being a part of our ICAway community. Have a great day, and I will see you next time. Think big and live your dream.